It looks like Mr. Gurcharan Das will stop at nothing in his crusade to prove how awesome ‘democratic’ India is and how horrible Communist China is.
There is a lot he wants to ‘prove’ by simply saying things and giving absolutely no evidence, in fact he says,
I have no satisfactory explanation for all this, but I think it may have something to do with India’s much-reviled caste system.
Yes, India (democratic, dont forget) is so much better than Communist China because its social system condemns people to a lifetime of slavery and humiliation with absolutely no hope of emancipation. That is uptil the modern Indian state arrived. A state Das singularly hates.
What is the reality ?
The Communist revolution smashed centuries of social hierarchy and flattened the Chinese society. The country can today offer its citizens basic services and social mobility that most Indians can only get with great difficulty. Its women can walk around its cities unfettered and unharassed, not molested and abused at every corner. Its entrepreneurs can rely on superb infrastructure that was created after the population had a certain basic standard of living.
The Republican Indian state has been overall much slower in improving the lot of its citizenry. Make no mistake, the average Indian is better off than he/she was 60 years ago. But this improvement is not very impressive when compared to other developing countries. And the responsibility for this does not rely squarely at the feet of the state. A lot of the blame has to be shouldered by the educated middle-class of modern India which simply fails to even recognize the reality of caste. Far from producing a generation of charged social-reformers in the vein of Ambedkar and Gandhi middle-class India has mostly produced some very average movie stars and some over paid cricketers. This has meant that the process of social change had to be carried out by the oppressed all by themselves.
India’s middle class and its state have effectively abandoned its masses. They are being made to claw their way to justice using the power of the vote. If they succeed, then it will be one of the biggest stories of the 21st century that will make the world an immeasurably better place. To make India great Das needs to uplift his fellow Indians not put down the Chinese.
I am glad you have brought up the subject. Das is not alone. I recall a column by Barkha Dutt on her dazzled return from Beijing. There again she said that while we may not have been able usher in the awesome progress that the Chinese have, we were better off because “we have democracy”!
Indians of this class are happy in their own privileged ‘free world’ and they want to tell ordinary Indians who have little practical freedom and a poor wretched existence that they are better off than the Chinese because they have ‘democracy’. I often wonder how much of rage will these Indians feel if they go to China and see for themselves how far the Chinese have gone in the last 25 years while they have relatively fallen far behind.
These guys have a misguided view of democracy. Instead of talking about the real serious issues in India, they are busy indulging themselves and the rest of our elite that somehow Indians are very happy because we have the democracy that they otherwise never care about.
Really, it embarasses me that people like Das can get an article in the NYT. I think the NYT just wants to show Americans how delusional Indians can be.
By: Vinod Sharma on January 3, 2009
at 6:13 am
@ Vikram : China is not comparable with India. India would win hands down any day as a place to live. Freedom does matter. The price of such equality in China is clear. If you want change you will be taken ‘care of’. I have witnessed with my own eyes how they treat their prisoners in China. I have also seen evidence of cultural genocide. China is China, we must stop comparing ourselves with that country. The quality of life in that country can be terrible especially in rural areas of it. Medical care in China in my opinion is as terrible as India if not worse. Simple things like disposable syringes were missing in some hospitals. My business partner who was on a trip earlier was poked again and again with the same syringe until he finally could ask his insurance company to get him out of there.
China is not a heaven-paradise. I am sure there are better countries out there who have done well for themselves in social equality without killing millions in a ‘cultural revolution’. Personally also there is nothing like ‘no social hierarchy’ in china. There is a definite social hierarchy. If you are a party member you are likely to do much better than if you are not one. There is also much discrimination between different nationalities. If is much better for you if you are a Han than if you are an Uighur or a Tibetan. Of course the majority Han say things like ‘but the minorities are privileged in China’ in the same tone as Upper caste Indians say about Reservations. China also has alarming rates of female infanticide. The reason being one child policy and since Chinese mostly prefer male children, girls are likely to be bumped off. Trust me China is crap. Although India is crap as well.
By: odzer on January 3, 2009
at 10:35 am
I have been to China, although for a short while and talked to ordinary chinese people. We should not assume they are happier than Indians, in fact I would think they are less happy. They are always looking over their shoulder. The place is oppressive although I envied the women for being so free.
You should have seen the fear they have for the police! It’s scary.
I do not know whether it is the political system, maybe the Indians are happier because of our laid back nature, religiosity and other qualities, but the fact is that we are far better off in India. Ten times, a hundred times!!!
By: Nita on January 3, 2009
at 12:07 pm
@ Odzer, Nita : Lets face it, we Indians love putting others down to prove we are better. Whether it is within India or outsiders. Many of the comments (not published) that came on my UP vs TN page were about how ‘black’ South Indians are and how Rajnikanth is like a monkey etc. I have heard Indians here say umpteen times how ‘Americans lack family values’, not religious enough etc. How Pakistanis are religious extremists even though we elect people like Modi/Advani/Thackeray ….
You must have experienced this yourself many times.
I am not saying that China is some paradise. But we have to stop putting down others to show we are better. If Das can say this on an international stage like this I cant even imagine what middle-class Indians say in their drawing rooms. Democracy was something past generations of Indians worked very hard to attain and nurture. We cant pervert it like this.
By: Vikram on January 3, 2009
at 6:34 pm
@ Vikram : First of all, I never put down anyone I am simply stating what can be obviously observed even on a 2 day visit to the PRC. Although I was there for much longer. Secondly if you read the last line of my comment I did make it clear. I think you should visit China once because the Chinese do run a huge ‘lets have a better image’ campaign. It is often not clear to people outside what China is like. I also suggest you visit Middle provinces and the Chinese South West.
Oh and btw all of our blogs in China would be banned. You would not be able to read most of international media and even if you could it would be terribly slow. Although I keep hearing from the Chinese how things have changed. So in the past it was even more terrible. Lets be honest when we describe the Chinese, they are not some sort of super achievers either. No one knows the real figures about growth in that country. The currency is virtually pegged to the dollar and the government sits over every bit of valid information. So most of it is just an ‘estimate’. I think a better country for comparison would be South Korea. Their businesses are structured like those in India. They were extremely corrupt in both government and private sector and they have done exceedingly well in a very short span of time. They are also surrounded by nations that are ‘hostile’ to them. I think sometimes that we must take the Korean route to prosperity.
By: odzer on January 4, 2009
at 5:29 am
Odzer, I am certainly not blaming you. You and Nita can certainly be more objective. Doesnt it irk you even the slightest bit that a moron like Das can get an editorial in the NYT ? It is his opinion I dont agree with. And I am saying that it is very easy to argue the other way around.
But I guess there is no point in arguing about this anyways, like you said in ur 1st comment.
By: Vikram on January 4, 2009
at 5:48 am
@ Vikram : I agree! In any case the guy has no clue, you can not have sustained progress without the state getting its act together. So indeed he is living in his own fantasy world.
By: odzer on January 4, 2009
at 6:57 am
Vikram, blindly admiring any country is wrong. I admire a lot of things in China but that doesnt mean I have no right to criticize it. I find your argument quite odd. One needs to criticize. It’s healthy, as long as one is objective and sticks to facts.
I am not referring to G D’s article here, and I thought this was quite evident from my comment.
One needs to see the pros and cons of every political system, every country, every situation.
By: Nita on January 5, 2009
at 6:04 am
My blog is banned in China after I wrote about Tibet. Let’s see china objectively please. The people there are suppressed and unhappy. Anyone who visits China can see that. or maybe they are internally happy and just don’t laugh and smile much. That too is possible.
By: Nita on January 5, 2009
at 6:06 am
Nita, I am not saying that we blindly admire a country. And I am certainly not advocating a communist state in India. What I am saying is that we not try to use our democracy to somehow claim that we are better off.
By: Vikram on January 5, 2009
at 6:26 pm
He(Das) should have paused to think if trade and commerce were flourishing in societies without caste system. If some of them made it to forbes list. And if anything the list of Indian billionaires reflects on caste, it shows how egregiously discriminative Indian economy is.
I guess the blog post should have been read w.r.t India, and its self-indulgence promoted by Das and his likes.
The argument against china’s economic growth (compared with that of India) has always been ‘democracy’ and ‘freedom’, as it is in Das’s column and in some comments here. What is forgotten is Freedom and Democracy in India is an inverse-pyramid. It becomes suffocatingly stifling down the socio-economic ladder. As a liberal economy, even the communist china could hardly be any different.
India is seen as a success story (as Das quotes) not just because its a democracy, because its a favorable democracy. There ought to be a difference.
Thank you Prabin for your great comment. The reality of caste, hits not only on the billionaires list but also in the students in India’s premier educational institutes and the uptil recently India’s administration and politics (North India esp).
A democratic political system is a good thing, but we should think of it as a starting point for buliding a good society not an end in itself.
By: Prabin on January 6, 2009
at 4:11 am
Another article on India and China.. After reading much about China I can say India is a better place to live.. and as odzer mentioned ‘Freedom matters’. What we are going to do all the wealth without freedom.. it’s like hell.. A country in which there is no freedom to media how can term it as a country to live.. all those olympics and all gimmicks shown by them to shut the mouth of the world. A country which was not able to solve the Tibet problem doesn’t have the right to say anything about India on Kashmir..
Then again our Citizens failed to raise our standards of Indian democracy as all were started to concern about their own goods.. But time hasn’t gone beyond.. we can push India to greater heights
By: kanagu on January 8, 2009
at 3:11 pm
While democracy in India is not perfect and not mature, there’s no doubt that the Indian political system is much better and preferable to the Chinese one. They shoot the factory manager if the product is found to be tainted. They do not allow any criticism from dissident voices and throw them in jail. Most likely, your blog would be censored if you were living in China and if Gurcharan Das was a party official (and you wrote a similar piece criticizing him).
So, it’s a no brainer that Indian democracy is much better than the Chinese system.
By: Amit on January 8, 2009
at 10:24 pm
Amit, Kanagu at no point have I said that I think that freedom and democracy are bad things. However I will just repeat what I said to reply to Prabin’s comment,
A democratic political system is a good thing, but we should think of it as a starting point for buliding a good society not an end in itself.
And Das is trying to potray Indian democracy as an end in itself. Democracy enables us to correct problems in our society, but the problems wont go away just because we are democratic.
By: Vikram on January 8, 2009
at 10:38 pm
Vikram, I read that op-ed piece, and Mr. Das specifically uses “evolving” to describe Indian democracy, and I failed to find any evidence that he think Indian democracy is “awesome” – which is what you used in the post. Here’s the relevant quote by Mr. Das:
“The answer is that India is a vast, unwieldy, open democracy ruled by a coalition of 20 parties. It is evolving through a daily flow of ideas among the conservative forces of caste and religion, the liberals who dominate intellectual life, and the new forces of global capitalism.”
Using “unwieldy” does not connote “awesome” to me.
Is it possible that your analysis of his op-ed is coming from a Marxist/leftist perspective?
(The fact that you quoted his reference to caste system hints at that.)
By: Amit on January 9, 2009
at 1:48 am
I did not mean awesome in the sense that you perhaps took it in. He thinks that just the fact that India is a democracy is something to feel good about it, when in reality it should just be the natural state of affairs. We became democratic (after a long struggle) 60 years ago, not yesterday.
Yes, India is evolving, but until it can give its citizens a basic standard of living it has no right to lecture any other country in the world. In a modern nation, the right to a decent education is just as important as the right to free speech. And in huge countries like India and China, providing a decent education to all is a much bigger challenge than letting “a middle-class housewife on national television tell a reporter that the Indian commandos delayed in engaging the terrorists because they were too busy guarding political big shots”.
By: Vikram on January 9, 2009
at 6:00 am
Vikram, in USA, with its 200+ years of democracy, one can still find homeless shelters and soup kitchens in almost all cities. Whereas one also finds all the glitz of Las Vegas and palace-like mansions built by the likes of Donald Trump. Both exist.
I’m not saying that India shouldn’t pursue what you suggested above re: education, or that Indian democracy’s work is done, but perhaps a little patience is necessary. I also don’t see an either/or or zero-sum issue between providing education and “letting a housewife speak her mind.” (Interesting choice of word there – “letting”.) Are you saying that not letting that housewife speak her mind (while you are speaking your mind through your blog) will somehow help provide education? Sorry, the connection is lost to me.
By: Amit on January 9, 2009
at 4:31 pm
Amit, I didnt say that there is a choice between providing education and ‘letting a housewife speak her mind’. I did not imply that at all. I am saying that providing the former is a much bigger challenge than the latter. And India, especially the North has failed to live upto that challenge. It will now face the consequences.
The poor in authoritarian China are much, much better off than the poor in India. The freedom to speak, organize and vote are very good things that should be protected but they mean little in a country where half the children are malnourished. And Das simply fails to account for this fact.
Yes, patience is required, that is exactly the point. Before blowing the trumpet of democracy on an international stage, we have to get some basic things worked out.
By: Vikram on January 9, 2009
at 5:27 pm
Hello Vikram: very interesting blog. I share many of your views, esp. on the Indian middle class.
One small question: you have a quote from Gucharan Das where he credits our peculiar institution -the caste system-for our democracy. Can you recall the source of this quote? where did you get it?
In a forthcoming book “The God market: How Globalization is making India more HIndu” (Random House, aug. 2009), I crticize G D and some of his fellow neo-Swatatnraites for their HIndu traditionalist (NOT Hindu nationalist) biases.
i have read his India Unbound and other essays on the internet.
if you can tell me the source of this quote it will be useful.
thanks and keep up the good work
Meera Nanda
By: Meera Nanda on June 19, 2009
at 5:19 am
Meera, welcome. The quote is from this NYT piece http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/02/opinion/02das.html?_r=2, the first line of the 7th para.
By: Vikram on June 19, 2009
at 11:38 am
Vikram,
Based on my understanding of that NYT piece, GD is not crediting Indian democracy, but the economic growth to the Vaishyas, as is clear from the sentences following the one you quoted: “…who have learned over generations how to accumulate capital, give the nation a competitive advantage. Classical liberals may be right in thinking that commerce is a natural trait, but it helps if there is a devoted group of risk-taking entrepreneurs around to take advantage of the opportunity. Not surprisingly, Vaishyas still dominate the Forbes list of Indian billionaires.”
Did you misread his words?
Amit, what Das says here partly makes sense, in the sense that it will always be some subset of the population that will be entrepreneurial. This will be true of any country I guess. But, if this subset is also a well-defined group, it raises the spectre of control of the economy by a single ethnic group. I hope you can see how this close network of individuals can keep others enterprising groups of people out of the economy. I dont have evidence for or against that claim, but it is something that needs to be thought about.
By: Amit on September 7, 2009
at 12:31 am
Vikram,
I’m not sure that the entrepreneurial ability/business activity is limited to one caste today (even if they may be good at it), or that this one caste controls the entry of others.
Besides, you quoted GD’s words to imply “(his) crusade to prove how awesome ‘democratic’ India is” (your words) whereas he meant those words for the economic activity, not democracy.
By: Amit on September 7, 2009
at 4:18 pm
I agree with you that often(almost always!
)we make too much noise about “culture” and “democracy” to feel better about ourselves and our failures, but I don’t get why you’re going on and on about China’s “awesomeness”. I mean, what do you intend to prove? That India sucks because though we can provide more freedoms, the Chinese are more prosperous?
The country is an all-consuming maw. It’s an authoritarian state and no one actually knows what goes on inside there. I personally don’t believe much of their “growth story”, and call me biased, but I somehow have this feeling that a lot of blood has been shed for “prosperity”.
One thing that comes to mind is the Narmada Bachao Andolan. If we were Chinese, we’d have probably shot Medha Patkar and Co. and got the dam built. Then the same people who complain about the Indian democracy’s failures would start railing against Narendra Modi for “stifling free speech and bla bla”. You’d probably start dishing out statistics indicating “how free” the US is and “how we don’t have even basic freedoms of expression.”
So while we may be behind China in most respects, and while we have no right to put down others to hide our failures, our system of governance is much better than the Chinese’s. Our problems are grave, and varied, but we don’t have to solve them in the Chinese way(what is the Chinese way, btw?Idk) ,whatever you write about the “progress” of China and the “failures” of India.
By: Akshay on September 6, 2009
at 2:07 pm
Akshay, it is not so much China’s prosperity I am talking about here. It is about the equality of China’s society and the dignity it can offer to the majority of its citizens. I am not comparing so much China’s economic growth rates and number of billinaires to India’s as I am the number of malnourished and literate.
I do believe that as long as we have a democratic state and freedom of speech India can some day offer its citizens the same equality and dignity that many other states can, alongwith the civil liberties it currently offers.
I would recommend the book Smoke and Mirrors by Pallavi Aiyar to understand this better. I will quote her,
“One of communism’s lingering legacies in China was a basic belief in the dignity of labour and to me it was this belief that created the broadest gulf between India and China; a chasm ultimately much harder to bridge than that of GDP growth rates or flashy infrastructure.”
By: Vikram on September 7, 2009
at 12:59 am
“The freedom to speak, organize and vote are very good things that should be protected but they mean little in a country where half the children are malnourished. And Das simply fails to account for this fact.”
Bang on. I quite agree.
By: Akshay on September 6, 2009
at 2:15 pm